Gen. Charles C. Krulak retired as the 31st Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps in June 1999, capping a distinguished 35-year career in the Marines.

As a recent graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, he commanded a platoon and two rifle companies during two tours of duty in Vietnam. His career, which included assignments as deputy director of the White House Military Office and commanding officer of the Naval Academy, helped shape him into an articulate philosopher and practitioner of leadership in a wide variety of situations.

He'll be sharing his thoughts on "Core Values & Leadership" in the opening keynote address at Fire-Rescue International 2000, which will be held in Dallas, August 25-28.

In addition to his B.S. in engineering from Annapolis, Krulak holds a master's degree in labor relations from George Washington University. He's currently senior vice chairman and chief administrative officer for MBNA America Bank, N.A., Wilmington, Del.

Fire Chief editorial advisor and longtime "Chief's Clipboard" columnist Ronny J. Coleman, himself a former Marine, claimed the honor of interviewing Gen. Krulak recently. The discussion initially focused on the foreword the general wrote to "Corps Business: The 30 Management Principles of the U.S. Marines," by David H. Freedman, published by Harperbusiness, $26.00 (hardcover).

Coleman: There have been several books out lately about management principles of the u.s.m.c. and how they apply to the real world business management and fire service. In the foreword you wrote to "Corps Business," you said there was a common ground between leadership and business management. Why do you think that's true?

Krulak: I think management is a subset of leadership, that management could be defined as the effective utilization of personnel, money and material to achieve a goal.

Leadership includes not only effective management, but also a great deal more. It reaches really to the nobility that somebody finds, whether they're running a fire crew or they're part of that crew or they're running the whole department. There is nobility to that effort. That nobility is made up of the individual's character, his moral courage, physical courage, his integrity and a whole bunch of other things.

All of those in total make what is called a leader. And if you're effective in bringing all of those various traits together, including them into your effective utilization of your people and your money and your material, you develop a highly effective leader.

Coleman: That's interesting that you use the word nobility, because about 30 years ago one of the early motivational tapes done for the fire service was called "Noble Breed."

Krulak: I think that people such as firefighters, such as law enforcement and the military, are in fact noble. On a daily basis they may not spend much time thinking about the nobility, but when a fire chief on bended knee places a flag in the hand of the widow of a man who lost his life in a three-story building trying to save a young child, they're bending the knee in tribute to a noble person.

Coleman: Freedman's book cites about 30 principles, and when I went over them, I could easily relate them to fire service situations. In fact, I've been doing so for a long time just based on my Marine Corps experience. It talks a lot about responsiveness and responsibility, and we deal with that in the fire service, yet the Marine Corps is also a very traditional organization and so is the fire service. How does the Marine Corps balance tradition and the ability to change?

Krulak: That is a great question. People, I think, misunderstand tradition and confuse it with having your feet in granite.

Coleman: I like that.

Krulak: There is absolutely no correlation. I believe that even the term "adaptable" doesn't meet what I think the Marine Corps, the fire service or for that matter law enforcement is doing to keep up with change.

Organizations such as ours capitalize on what I call agility. There's a big difference between adaptability and agility. Agility in the fire department is the ability to anticipate and react. Adaptability means you're already behind the curve and trying to adapt to the fire. I don't think there is a firefighter around who would not much rather be agile than adaptable.

When you talk about tradition, there's absolutely nothing that would say that you can't be steeped in tradition yet be agile in your mind and in your actions. I think the Marine Corps over the years has done just that. We have had this wonderful ethos of honor, courage and commitment as our core values, but have also been willing to experiment.

We were the first to bring vertical envelopment with the helicopter. We were the first to use helicopters for something other than transporting wounded. We were the first to do close air support. We were the first to do amphibious operations. All of those from a very "tradition-bound organization" that just happens to also have their heart in this idea of agility.

What you want to do is have the agility to anticipate versus always be responding. I liken it to a chameleon. A chameleon doesn't have to have somebody touch it before it starts to turn. Even if a shadow comes over it, it immediately starts to change, and that' s agility. Maybe instead of a bulldog for the Marine Corps and a dalmatian for the firefighter, we all ought to be having a chameleon instead.

Coleman: That kind of leads to the next question, because the book talks about the Marine Corps knowing the difference between a capability-based force and a threat-based force. Can you discuss that concept also?

Krulak: I think the issue here again deals with the agility question. A threat is normally something pretty clearly defined. Although you are worried about, you're almost comfortable with it, because it's clearly defined and you know about it. The threats involved in burning buildings you worry about but you are trained and prepared for. That is one side of the coin, and some people are satisfied with that.

I would venture to say the best fire departments and certainly the Marine Corps are not as concerned about the threats you know as the chaos you don't know. That is where you get into what are the capabilities I need to meet the unanticipated: the chaos of a burning building, the chaos of fighting in a built-up area such as Hue City during Vietnam? How do you deal with that chaos? Well, again you deal with it because all your training and all your equipment purchases and all the leadership that you are doing is based around having the capability to be successful across a whole spectrum of eventualities.

Coleman: How do you believe the Marine Corps has been successful in developing the leadership skills down through the nco and officer levels? We have a need to develop similar skills in fire chiefs, firefighters and fire officers.

Krulak: Our education is built on what we call a continuum of education, the sure knowledge that each Marine who comes into the corps not only deserves but must be educated to survive on the modern battlefield and that they must be educated not just at the entry level. If we are going to develop and grow the leaders we need, that leadership must be along a continuum.

So to have someone come into the firefighting arena and just learn the basics of firefighting is in many ways to tie their hands behind their back. If you are going to have an effective department, you must provide to the people who are serving a continuum of education that says we owe it to you, we feel it is a moral imperative that we provide to you the training and education that will allow you to meet your greatest potential. And, by the way, to give you the best chance to survive under fire.

So we go to great lengths, starting with that young private at boot camp, all the way up to and including the War College at the colonel level that educated our Marines to be effective in combat.

Coleman: The Marine Corps obviously places emphasis on leadership all through the ranks. I remember when I was a corporal, I was expected to perform at certain levels. Of all the attributes of a leader, what do you think are the most important attributes in achieving success in really stressful circumstances?

Krulak: I'm asked that question all the time. What is the single most important leadership trait? In my opinion, one stands so far above the other that it isn't even funny, and that trait is character. You can be dynamic, you can be brilliant, you can be articulate, you can be charismatic, you can be physically courageous, morally courageous. You can be the greatest tactician in the world, but if you are not a man or woman of character, you will never truly be a successful leader.

All those traits: brilliance, articulateness, courage, physical strength, charisma, all of those are gifts from whatever God you believe in. Character is a choice. It's a choice you make day in and day out by making hard decisions. And if you are able to reach deep within yourself and draw upon what I call a source of inner strength built on a foundation of character, you will absolutely be successful.

Coleman: If a leader has that attribute, then one of the things they're trying to do is to develop those attributes in the people they supervise. How do you go about doing that?

Krulak: Well, it's very simple, and it's very tough to do, because the leader is afraid to do it, but they must allow their people the freedom to fail. They must provide an atmosphere to the young firefighter, the young marine, "Look. Spread your wings. You may very well fall out of the nest, but we are going to pick you up and tell you what you did wrong, why you didn't fly and then we are going to give you another chance."

With people you can't have a zero-defect mentality; you've got to allow people the freedom to fail. Now there are some areas where you cannot allow them that freedom to fail. Those areas are what I call moral turpitude. You cannot have a firefighter who lies. You can't have a firefighter who cheats. You can't have a firefighter who steals. But if a firefighter makes a mistake in any other area, you've got to give them a second chance.

And as you do that, as you give them the opportunity to make the tough calls, the calls that cause their hands to get clammy and the sweat to pop out on their brows and their stomach to turn into knots, when they start making those hard calls and making them right, you are building their character, layer by layer.

Coleman: Excellent. One thing the Marine Corps is very good at is both credibility and loyalty. How do you think that is developed in an organizational setting?

Krulak: By consistently doing the right thing versus doing things right. It's a big difference. Doing the right thing touches on this idea of character and integrity and moral courage. Doing things right touches on looking good, doing what the boss wants. There is such a difference. I think it's the consistent striving to do the right thing for our people, to do the right thing for our fire department, to do the right thing for our institution; as that is absorbed by your people, you build remarkable loyalty.

Loyalty is also built by what you saw as a Marine, and that is that nco or that officer really caring for you. Not just pretending to care, but truly caring and knowing that if your buddy falls, you are going to pick them up. The old idea of we came as one, we leave as one. We don't leave our dead or wounded on the battlefield. We don't leave our dead or wounded in a burning building. All of the things go into the building of esprit de corps and loyalty.

Coleman: In 1995, you published a document called Commandant Guidance ...

Krulak: A planning guide.

Coleman: ... which included your explanation of your expectations. I personally believe that kind of document is very useful in setting a strategy. How do you feel it helped you in moving the Marine Corps forward?

Krulak: I was blessed to have a father in the Marine Corps, and he also got to a very high rank. After I had been nominated to be the commandant, he said, "You're going to have one year to make change and three years to make sure that the change takes place." So I put out that planning guide on the very day I became commandant. The idea was to set down in writing my intent for the Marine Corps and where I thought we ought to go, and to assign specific goals to specific individuals and those dates and goals to be accomplished. I made sure that all of those dates and goals were accomplished in the first year, so in the following three years we can hone and refine and improve upon them. The planning guide is critical to my commandancy.

Coleman: Some people think if they stay on a job for 10 years, they're able to accomplish something throughout that entire period. I'm a believer myself that you have a window of opportunity and then the rest of the time you're cleaning up the house.

Krulak: That's right. Your window of opportunity is early on and then you have to keep measuring where you are. As you remember, in combat you always issue orders, but continuing issuing frag orders as you go through the battle. So there's nothing wrong with modifying an order, but you need the commandant's intent, you need the fire chief's intent, to get that team's focus on the mission at hand.

Coleman: The Marine Corps has produced a lot of leaders and its fair share of heroes. Other than your father, who are your favorite officers or ncos, and why do you feel that you learned from them?

Krulak: I guess I could pick one officer and one enlisted. The officer, unfortunately, is now dead. He was Lt. Col. Richard Schultz, his nickname was Dutch, and he was my battalion commander on my second tour of Vietnam.

He showed me and taught me in no uncertain terms that you can be a superb tactically and technically competent officer and at the same time the caring concerned leader. He was the constant professional; he knew his job. I would not want to go into combat with anybody more than I would want to go into combat with him, but at the same time he was a wonderful man who cared for his people. He treated them each individually with respect and dignity. So he combined the best of the technical side as well as the personal side. When you talk about a Marine's Marine, he is one of them.

The other was the sergeant major of the Marine Corps when I was commandant. Gary Lee was everything you would think a sergeant major in the Marine Corps would be: tough, demanding, very professional, hard as woodpecker lips. I mean there was nothing that would faze this man. He was courageous both physically and morally. Just a great man, but again, what is a common thread to all great men, he also had a caring and concerned side to him for the dignity of man.

Coleman: Marines, including you, have transitioned into the private sector, and they bring with them what we call transferable skills, meaning that what they've done one place allows them to perform very well in other areas. You obviously now are immersed in the private sector and you're a busy man. I can prove that just from trying to track you down. What skills have been useful to you since you've been leading and managing in your civilian career?

Krulak: The same skills that make you successful in the other place, which is one, being honest, telling it like it is; two, working hard, I mean really working hard trying to learn the business; and three, getting out and about. I call it "kicking boxes," just getting out, letting people see you, you see them, and learning from your people.

Don't make them do a dog-and-pony show, don't make them spend a lot time making briefs and PowerPoint slides. Just get down there with them and find out what they're thinking and try to help them and try to learn from them.

Whether you're in service to your country or you're in business, people look for honesty, people look for the kind of care, concern, respect and dignity that you have in the military. That transfers right into the private sector. You try to keep the sense of integrity at the soul of what you're doing. Most people who've served in the military do a superb job in business.

Coleman: One of the things I found interesting reading Freedman's book is in the back of the book they were talking about the fact that to really evaluate some of these principles, they were looking around for a group of people who sort of operated the same way. He actually did some research with fire departments, because he felt that fire departments had the same kinds of conduct the Corps has.

Krulak: I normally don't talk to organizations; this is the second major organization I have ever talked to. I do a lot of speaking, but it's normally at colleges and trying to motivate young people. I've accepted this wonderful invitation because I feel a kinship to firefighters. I believe in my heart and soul that the Marine and the firefighter have unbelievable amounts in common. When I went up on Capitol Hill, I used to call the Marine Corps the 911 force.

Coleman: I like that.

Krulak: The idea is you dial 911, you get the Marine Corps. You dial 911, you get the fire department. We are one and the same. We put out the fires that keep conflagration, either in the cities or in the world environment, from overtaking us.

Coleman: That's a wonderful quote. I've asked you a series of questions without giving you the benefit of saying something that you feel is important to say to an audience like fire chiefs. Is there anything before we wrap up the process?

Krulak: It's going to be a tremendous honor for me to be able to not only give an address, but have questions and answers from people who I hold in utmost respect. They are the equivalent of the 911 force.

This nation has two 911 forces: one for those areas that are external, better known as conflict in the world environment, and one for internal conflict within the United States. The Marine Corps does one; the fire departments do the other.