What changes do you foresee in the role of state fire marshals with the new Department of Homeland Security? What role are you playing on behalf of the fire and emergency services and the DHS in terms of terrorist prevention and response?

Gary Wise: When homeland security was first brought to the forefront, our Gov. [Mike O.] Levitt jumped right on it and formed the Division of Emergency Services and Homeland Security. It was manned without additional funding and drew from different divisions within the Department of Public Safety. I'm not sure which came first, but as a result of the governor's quick response, he also was appointed to the president's Homeland Security Council.

There also was a strong push toward the homeland security issues within our state. As a division of the Department of Public Safety, I have the opportunity to work closely and interact with them. My main role is to make sure that, on a state level, the needs and the views of the fire service are well represented to the Division of Emergency Services. Specifically, if there are questions they don't understand about the fire service, I can respond to those.

One of the areas that I need to keep impressing on the law enforcement or those who are more security-minded type of groups, is that when they implement security issues, they don't ignore the life safety issues that the fire and building codes require in schools, assemblies, universities and occupancies. Many times they will want to provide a higher level of security because of the threat, but they need to make sure they don't compromise the code requirements. We need a common ground on that.

In the schools they've had discussions about if there's terrorist incident — domestic or otherwise — there's been discussions about defend-in-place. Well, if they pull fire alarms or if the terrorist starts a fire, do you get the people out or lock them in classrooms? If they don't have an exit out, it could be another danger. We've had many discussions about extra security equipment put on a school that might compromise panic hardware.

Bill Barnard: In my former role in working in the governor's office with public safety agencies, we were very keenly aware of the need to coordinate among the different groups. In Maryland, like many states, we have a very high percentage of volunteer firefighters, particularly outside the metropolitan areas where there's no central fire authority, a county fire chief. We have a lot of county systems in the metropolitan areas around Maryland.

As you get out into the more rural areas, we have volunteer fire corporations that don't have a central fire authority but may work through an association or something like that. So we recognized early on the need to involve groups like the Maryland State Firefighters Association and the Maryland Fire Chiefs Association and the Metropolitan Fire Chiefs Council as representing the fire service because there's no state fire chief. You have the fire marshal, but I'm not operationally involved. I can't go and take command of one of their incidents.

We have very specific duties here at the state fire marshal's office that don't include operational elements. Some fire marshals have training abilities; I don't. We do code enforcement, we do planning review, fire investigations and public education; working with our partners the Maryland State Firemen's Association and individual fire companies and counties, recognizing early on and bringing those groups together to formulate a plan for deployment of resources.

When the Sept. 11 event occurred, there was a lot of self-deployment that went on, and we stressed all of our groups together to keep people at home. We had a few go out. Even with our proximity to the Pentagon incident there were some Maryland departments dispatched, but as self-deployment we had a limited amount of that.

Bringing those groups together, working with the Y2K issue, I thought we were more prepared for the dialogue that took place, to have deployment plans by working with the regional bases as to whatever the locals may need.

Jim Narva: My experience has been very similar to Gary's. Our number-one responsibility is to be an advocate for the fire service. In Wyoming, we are the only state governmental agency that either deals with or represents the fire service. There are numerous ones for the law enforcement groups out there, but an organization that's involved in planning at a statewide level representing government, we are that single agency. It's vital that we understand and speak for the fire service.

A couple of issues that come up in particular will have a huge impact and direction for our office. The first is training. The SFM office in Wyoming is responsible for statewide training, which poses a tremendous challenge due to the fact that 95% of the state is volunteer fire service. So we have developed mechanisms and means to deliver those programs to volunteers based on their schedules. It's not an 8-to-5, everyday thing you can do. We need to understand the challenges that go with that.

A second key point is building relationships. If there are lessons to be learned from what happened on Sept. 11 that have been reinforced, it's been that those relationships that were in place prior to the disaster helped get through it. We can pull resources together and coordinate the rescue efforts, somehow facilitating it at state level and underscoring the importance local communities and building those relationships within the communities. It's not just the fire service or law enforcement. We're all first responders and certainly have a vital function; it has to be a team approach.

Barnard: I agree with Jim in bringing everyone to the table. One of the things that was done and mandated by the attorney general was to create the Joint Terrorism Task Force and the Anti-Terrorism Task Force. We've been a partner on that along with the other Maryland fire service groups, which is excellent for information exchange. The law enforcement community participates in there as well, and they're seen more as an equal partner. In fact, the fire service has three representatives on the committee of the Anti-Terrorism Task Force, which is equal to the number of law enforcement positions.

What do you see as an urgent priority for fire departments in your state?

Mary Corso: I think standardization and interoperability, whether it's funding in the field or interoperability in operations, is important for us. Since we're involved in the wildland fire issues here in the Northwest, it's very important to have the ability to communicate with each other [and the] large federal Forest Service. I think that spills over to Homeland Security. We're subject to earthquakes here and went through a 6.5 that was one of the scariest things I've been in, in my life.

Wise: As with all the states except for California, 80% of Utah is volunteer, with the core of career departments a few miles from Salt Lake City. We really need to ensure that the fire service as a whole — especially the volunteers — have adequate training, equipment hopefully through the various grants available. Other national information that comes out and is provided to them, they have access to Web pages in rural areas, but so many things come out from OSHA requirements that affect the volunteer chief as much as a career chief. Many times it's unknown to them that some of the responsibilities are on their shoulders.

One of the challenges with homeland security and the sharing of information with law enforcement is that information is very confidential — and it is — and must be kept very close to the chest, so how [do we] disseminate that information to the fire service when 80% are volunteer, law enforcement doesn't know who the chiefs are and sometimes they change annually? I think there's some validity to their concerns, but operationally I don't know how we're going to address that. There have been discussions, but the intelligence information is disseminated on a very limited basis to the fire service. To be well prepared, you can't depend on whether it's a yellow or an orange alert.

Barnard: The departments in Maryland have asked for more funding for more training. Career departments need staff to replace crews while they are attending training. MFRI has been pretty good at getting the training out to their regional training centers here in Maryland, and they've included a certain level of terrorism training in all of their classes, plus an additional awareness four-hour class. Not everyone has taken advantage of it because there are so many requirements out there and only so much time in a day, particularly for volunteers who are working other jobs.

Also, equipment is a priority in the more rural areas. Some of the Homeland Security money has restrictions; you can't buy personalized equipment, but you can buy specialized equipment. In some cases, the fire companies need the personal equipment to do the everyday stuff. If you don't do the everyday stuff well, when you get into the hazmat problems, you don't have a good basis to expand from.

Narva: Two priorities come to mind. One priority is training and planning. We need that planning aspect, and in Wyoming that process is moving along well. We're getting to the stage now we can address the Homeland Security training. My understanding right now, before you can use any of the training money from DHS, there are specific courses you must have. My concern is some of those courses are at a level that is less than what has been provided in our state previously. However, the bureaucratic maze is incredible to work through and get the accepted programs if they're not ODP programs. The best-used training is imperative for volunteer departments in our state. The time needs to be well spent and beneficial.

The second aspect is resources. Consider the resources that would be needed for a WMD attack in your community. Every state has something like a Pentagon or World Trade Center — some infrastructure that, if struck, would be a tremendous blow. The resources that would be necessary to deal with that type of incident aren't there. In Wyoming, we have 145 fire departments and 5,000 firefighters spread over a state of [97,809] square miles. So resources are going to be a real challenge and first responders need to be protected, not so much to mitigate but protect themselves until help arrives, and that help isn't minutes away as in a metro area, but likely hours away.

We had recognized this problem. Our governor has made a commitment to get money to the first responders and is exceeding that 80% the federal government is stating. We've provided Level-A suits for departments, and the metro departments that don't need it have given it to departments that don't have SCBAs at all. So getting fire departments equipped to a basic level is a real priority.

Wise: I think that's why this FIRE Grant is so vitally important to the fire service nationally, not only its being funded at adequate levels, but the way it's administered is so important; there's not a 10 or 20% rake off for the state and then trickle-down. This year alone, we have $600,000 in Utah with five or six rounds. Last year it was $2 million dollars and it was so very critical for these smaller departments to get adequate apparatus and equipment. It really concerns me that the letter that Secretary [Tom] Ridge responded to the president of the IAFC, I was concerned that in his letter it didn't sound too promising that it wasn't going to be maintained in the way that they are functioning right now. It's a tremendous asset the way the system is set up and the level of funding.

Corso: We're [also] heavily involved in the pipeline issue. We had an incident in Bellingham, Wash., where three young people lost their lives in a pipeline incident, and 270,000 gallons of gasoline ruptured and went into Watkin Creek. It ultimately ignited and caused the three deaths.

This generated a task force of state agencies by the governor to see what we could do to not have this situation reoccur. One of the things I've recognized is the lack of a systematic approach to pipeline incidents for first responders. Members of my office decided that we needed some sort of training beyond hazardous materials for a major event: what do you need to know, what actions should you take and engage in.

We worked with the pipeline industry and were able to create a curriculum that we're now teaching fire departments along the pipeline route so they know what their action should be, who to contact in the pipeline companies and where they are geographically located within their district. These pipelines have been buried for so long that people don't even know where they are buried and out of sight, out of mind is dangerous. It's important that we work collectively with our partners in the industry.

One of the interesting things we had to overcome in contacting and in meeting with pipeline companies was the reaction that “here's another regulatory body that wants to do something,” and we didn't. We almost had to have a moment of silence for that attitude to get on and ask, how do we collectively make a difference and use each other's strengths and assist not only the firefighters, but also the communities and making sure we're as prepared as we can for a pipeline incident?

I think it's a mistake for us to not take in industry as a full partner on some of the issues we have to deal with.

When you have to get info to fire departments, what's the fastest method in your state?

Wise: Through the Utah Fire & Rescue Academy, they have set up a Yahoo group-type of thing. It doesn't reach everyone because they're not all members of the group, but that's one way. Another is to call the state fire chiefs' and state firefighters' associations to get the word out. Fortunately, we haven't had anything that's had to get out in days.

Barnard: We've had a pretty good network between the various fire agencies here in Maryland. I work closely with Director Steve Edwards at the Maryland Fire & Rescue Institute, which provides the training arm here in Maryland.

The Maryland fire chiefs have created a alert mechanism for the Maryland Fire Chiefs group and included my fire marshal's office and supervisors. They send pages, e-mails and alerts to cell phones to alert you to go to their Web site and pick up any info that needs to come down quickly. They are able to tell you if it's information or a critical type of alert and you can respond accordingly. It's fairly new, but up and operating in the past few months and very well received.

What is that system's coverage?

Barnard: I wouldn't call it 100%. As Gary stated, the volunteer companies have elections and things turn over. But as far as all the career, the folks are signed up and receive it quickly. They're pretty judicious with what they put out and coordinate it with the anti-terrorism task force.

Do state fire marshals have a Web site to exchange information? How best do you interact with one another?

Wise: The Web site [www.firemarshals.org] is a great resource for communication, as well as group e-mailings. If somebody has a problem or a question, they'll send it out to all state fire marshals and, hopefully, a great many will respond. I find it to be of great value.

Barnard: I'll echo that. I've had half a dozen questions on different issues and have turned them out to the entire group. Depending on how quickly you need things back, you generally do get a good response. Some of our duties and responsibilities are different. If it's a fire issue, I'll go to Steve Edwards at MFRI.

What's the biggest portion of your day spent on?

Wise: That depends on the day. We just closed out a budget year and we're talking about budget 2005, and that's been my focus. It depends upon time of year; my major goal is proper operation of the office and our responsibilities, but also the complete support of the fire service within the state. I preach to these people every time I got out in their meetings, use my office. I'm there as a resource to you. Call us about anything and we'll try to help you out. Our focus is customer focus.

We're basically 80% volunteer and we are involved in many areas, including to help with a Wal-Mart in a small town. If they don't have the expertise to do the plan review, we go as far as we can to aid and assist them.

Barnard: I agree with Gary. I can spend time on budgets certain times of the year, and other times it may be personnel issues, but the biggest is spent working with other organizations that relate to the fire service and state agencies interfacing with them. I attend every meeting of the Maryland Fire Chiefs' Association, and also the Maryland Firemen's association; I'm at all of their meetings.

Interfacing in the field, I also have my deputy chief out in the state attending the local meetings, and if there are issues I need to be there. For instance, the town of Mount Airy was doing a residential sprinkler ordinance for all single-family dwellings and we were requested to come out to the council meetings and be part of the presentation.

Narva: A tremendous amount of time is spent both with the fire service and relating their concerns and issues and helping to get those to the appropriate people. That's what we're here for and what we're statutorily charged with. Different states have different missions, yet they all revolve around the fire service, fire safety and fire protection. We need to understand the issues out there, as we're one of the voices out there.

The USFA still is trying to resolve the problem of capturing fire and emergency response statistics nationwide in a timely fashion. What are you doing at your state level to acquire these incident reports? Is reporting mandatory or do you offer an incentive for these reports?

Corso: I've been a data statistics champion for years because I really truly believe that we can't ask for anything unless we can document our needs and get people to understand what we do. The NFIRS system is part of that process.

The article in USA Today on EMS was a great article, but it also demonstrated the lack of ability to collect good data and stand with the confirmed issues as to why people aren't getting there on time and why lives are being lost, the whole issue.… We can't always understand the two-minute response to every incident because you have too many conditions — the traffic — that come into play. If we understand the data and what happens to keep us from being successful in saving lives, we can truly then be able to develop better response systems, better equipment and ways to educate the public in what we can do is all very, very important.

Narva: In Wyoming, reporting is mandatory and statutorily required. Fire departments, chief officers or county wardens report all fires within seven days, which is problematic in its own; it doesn't always happen because these are volunteers. Our standard is 30 days and we have about 85-90% compliance with this. There are no incentives, other than we provide software and training step by step.

Barnard: You provide them software?

Narva: Yes, they are provided software to do that, and looking at annual reports the number is increasing, there's been a real concerted effort to get our departments to report their numbers. The biggest incentive we have is that they get something usable in return. Just to send the data in does no one any good unless some conclusions or statistical analysis are made from it and lessons learned. It's a big problem, and the biggest complaint we hear is, “What are you doing with all this stuff?”

With a high percentage of volunteers, do you have a problem with them getting to computers?

Narva: No, they don't have problems with computers, whether they have these in their station or at home. The only issue we have is just how quick they get turned around. I have no idea how to address that, unless they do it at the time of the incident, but they have other lives and they're not a captive audience.

Barnard: We're doing reasonably well here in Maryland. We changed over to NFIRS 5.0 in January, and I must say without the support of the Maryland Fire Chiefs and Maryland Firefighters, it would not have been possible. Particularly the Maryland State Firemen's Data Systems Committee worked very closely with them to provide adequate training and in the field. They were instrumental in receiving a donation of used computers for the companies out in the hinterlands and also working with the MFRI system that has a similar need for data and has provided a rural grant program and that's been very instrumental.

Also, we have a carrot and a stick. The state provides $10 million to the fire companies through the counties, and to receive the money you have to participate in the program — I only had two companies statewide that I didn't get data from for 2002.

I have one person who works full time with the program and does that data analysis so that I can get some decent data back. Before, the program was being done in large batches, and the city of Baltimore would send paper to us and we had to have it key-punched. It's still happening today, but they'll be converted over late this year. So we can provide data back to them in a much more timely fashion. In addition with some of the software out there, they can glean their own statistics.

I am very concerned on the national level that there is a huge amount of support for law enforcement and crime data from the federal government. On the fire side, we don't have every state reporting; we have only 85% and that's been increasing. When I got here two years ago, we had probably 10% that weren't reporting, but I've made it a priority. I don't believe you can make good decisions if you don't have good data to base it on. How do you know what your fire problem is unless you've got good data to back that up?

I think it's critically important that on a national level we have some method and support for getting that data so good decisions can be made for our resources. In order to be most effective, you need to do that. When I was the fire marshal in Prince George's County, we had them do a 10-year fire death study so we could pinpoint where the deaths were occurring and how the deaths were occurring and concentrate our resources in those ways. I had a much smaller geographic area to do that in.

Wise: We began converting over to 5.0 three years ago and have been in the transition stage for 4.1 to 5.0, this being the final cut-off — the end of this year — for a complete transition to 5.0. At the beginning, we got funding and purchased a vendor's software and provided that free of charge, along with their reporting software. We also had fire department management software that was part of the package, which was a great asset to the fire departments that used it for record-keeping.

Unfortunately, that vendor sold out to another company and we're having some problems with the costs of the annual maintenance fee and that's become an issue, but we have about 75% of the departments reporting. It's not mandatory in our state, but fortunately, the 75% that are reporting represent 90-plus percent of the population. So the amount we're not capturing, unfortunately, is not a large number of responses.

We do have an incentive to report. In our state, we partnered with some other agencies to provide up to $1.5 million worth of grants, and to be eligible to apply for the grants, they must be reporting, and that's been a good incentive. For the FIRE grant they have to be reporting, which is also a good incentive.

We also received a portion of the money to provide computers free of charge with Gateway. Out of the 254 departments, we distributed 150 computers this year. We hope to continue to get them out. When we provide the computers, we require them to maintain Internet and start accessing information that is available nationally and what is impacting them on a national basis.

We had a series of statistics provided to us based on the first half of 2003. Fire calls only made up 12% of the responses. That has to change how state fire marshals and chiefs look at their budgets.

Corso: The one thing we have to be careful with that statistic is there's still a significant dollar loss, and how does that relate to our fire losses and how does that relate to injuries and death? Yes, they are going down, and public education is going up over the last several years. However, there's a whole host of people who are having fires out there and we haven't done anything to stop the fires from occurring in the first place. We've lessened that message by talking about smoke detectors and sprinklers.…

We had a new chief of the Washington State Patrol and we're in that division. He brought something from New York City called Comstats. It's a process of understanding your data and what you do per activity-wise to make decisions in the future. I guess it's an accountability-driven leadership.

He started an advancement form, where every bureau in the agency (there are six different agencies) had to report on their activities as a performance measure. The chief went further and asked each bureau to report every month on their statistics, based on their strategic plan and on the performance measures they have set for themselves.

As a fire marshal, I didn't know how we'd measure that all once a month and report on it. We struggled with it, but it started clicking. There are great things we can measure and understand what our work load is doing and see if we can put better systems in place.

What we found was that a certain number of our sections — public health care inspections — we were basing our turnaround time for making sure they were compliant on our licensing laws that state: After six months if you're not compliant we can start revocation of your license for the Department of Health Services. I told my staff that when we go into the building, we essentially “buy” that building until we can sell it back to the owners. Why are we allowing a facility to be non-compliant for six months? None of the issues we're finding take six months to correct.

It seems that the state fire marshals' association should be able to find out what happens to the national statistics.

Wise: I echo what Bill is saying that on a national level, it's been very frustrating to see the lack of funding for the NFIRS program. I attended a [National Fire Information Center] conference a couple of years ago. The person assigned to data collection in our office used to be on the board of NFIC, so she's been quite involved across the nation. It has really been frustrating to get lip service from the USFA as far as the NFIRS program, understanding that they're not always getting the funding they should have, so it's really a difficult thing.

On a national level, it's like why provide data when you can't get anything out of it? It's a one-way street. They develop the software and it has a lot of history to it, unfortunately.

Barnard: There are almost too many issues to tackle all at one time. Paul Cook from Colorado has been the chairman of NASFM's committee related to the data collection, and at last year's conference we had a huge discussion about that issue and meetings with folks at the USFA because in most of our states — in all of our states — we're paying for the data collection process; we're not getting any funding at all from the federal levels.

In my case, I didn't have funds to distribute the software even though we were mandating a change to 5.0; we still required companies to purchase their own. Fortunately, we began the partnership with MFRI and they arranged a better price through a vendor and their member companies could purchase off of that, but I still couldn't provide them any funding to assist with that.

It's a shame that with the grant money for next year, they can't take 5% or 1% and offer a new computer to any fire department across the country. Fire departments would have to register, and we'd find out exactly how many fire departments there are and they'd have a method to send their information in.

Barnard: I'm certain that NASFM is going to have more discussions with the USFA on that issue and with the advent of PARADE [Prevention Advocacy Resource and Data Exchange] as a forum similar to TRADE on the training side, that may provide again another forum for an exchange of information. Certainly the support for the data collection is something that has been needed for a long time.

Wise: One of the things that's possible is that if the frustration gets high enough, if the states aren't getting anything in return, they're going to quit submitting data, especially if — as they said a year or two years ago — the USFA suggested taking a random sampling and taking this fire problem picture from that random sampling instead of from the actual hard data. That frustrated NFIC greatly, and I believe Paul Cook was the president at that time.

I would really like to see NASFM lay out certain demands to the USFA, getting some positive and effective response, or get to the point of rebellion and say, “We're not even going to turn the data into you.” I don't know what that will do to the fire service and the comparison of states, fire deaths and types of fires. Significantly, if you look at the data in the past, it has identified faulty products and implemented recalls. There's so much value from good data, it really raises the frustration level.

Barnard: How's your funding stream at the state level? We're general funded and there's been some cutback, personnel freezes; have you had similar situations?

Wise: Yes, we've had some reductions … this last legislative session all of the general fund monies — over a million dollars was taken away and substituted with restricted fund money. Fortunately, I'm immune from general fund budget cuts; they can still cut restricted funds, but to me it was a positive thing. The restricted fund is a very lucrative fund and funded through the life insurance, called the Fire Academy Support Fund, established in 1993. With that establishment, the fund has grown.

Narva: In Wyoming, it's all general funded. We do collect plan review and inspection fees to supplement the agency, but it's all returned to the general fund. The policy of the state officials is that they will support us from the general fund. I hope to follow Gary's ideas and try and find some ways to fund ourselves. The budget is fairly stable in Wyoming, and we seem to be behind the cycle of economic boom — ours shows up a year later. Our budget picture has been relatively stable and appears to go that way in the next session.

Barnard: We are general funded and we do have fees for plan reviews and inspections. In fact, we have public hearings with our fire prevention commission to increase those fees, and I think the average is about 30% — they have not been changed in 10 years. Local jurisdictions have changed, but again all that money will go to the general funds.

We are an agency within the state police, and our support has been pretty good from the administration, so I have no complaints in funding our operation.

In a recent meeting with Meri-K Appy, president of the Home Safety Council, she indicated there are a high number of fire deaths among those who are illiterate or speak other languages.

Corso: It's what people don't know that really hurts them. I've frequently said there are three major causes of fire: men, women and children, and not necessarily in that order. The human factor in every fire is so prevalent that at some point and time, we need to say “Stop the insanity! You have to have the ability to know these things and prepare yourself.”

…The USFA came out with a great theme, and it needs to be said louder and it's “No smoke alarm? No escape plan? No excuse.” If you think about it, whose responsibility is it to make sure you have a working smoke detector and you have an escape plan? It's the people living in the structure.

It's sort of pushing back, isn't it?

Corso: We're doing it with cigarettes and with weight and fitness.… Part of what the law enforcement community is doing is making people more responsible when they're driving and for more designated drivers. I suspect it's pushing more of it into the home…. It should be a holistic method. I think personal responsibility needs to be more in the forefront of the public education that we are doing.

Bill Barnard was appointed as the Maryland state fire marshal in July 2001. He began his career as a volunteer with the Hyattsville (Md.) Volunteer Fire Department and served as a career firefighter and fire officer with the Prince George's County (Md.) Fire Department for 24 years, retiring as a deputy fire chief. Barnard worked as the project manager for an arson prevention project for the Maryland State Fire Marshal's Office. He also served as a special assistant to the governor, with primary responsibilities involving public safety agencies.

Mary Corso is the Washington State fire marshal, a position she's served since 1998. She began her career as a firefighter in 1977, and in 1989 she joined the Minnesota State Fire Marshal's Office. Corso is a graduate of the Fire Protection Certificate Program at North Hennepin Community College in Minnesota. She has served on the NFPA board of directors; USFA National Fire Information Council board of directors; National Association of State Fire Marshals board of directors and the Pacific Northwest Wildland Coordinating Group.

Jim Narva, Wyoming State fire marshal, has been involved in the fire service for 17 years, first in a volunteer and then in a career department. He is the Wyoming representative for the Homeland Security Team. Before being named state fire marshal in April, Narva spent 13 years with the Cheyenne (Wyo.) Fire and Rescue Department. He's a 1992 graduate of the Harvard University Trade Union Program and is nearing completion of bachelor's degrees in philosophy, political science and economics.

Utah State Fire Marshal Gary Wise has been in the fire service since 1967, when he began working as a firefighter with the Anaheim (Calif.) Fire Department. In 1977, he was hired as a volunteer reserve firefighter for the City of Orem, Utah, and was hired as a full-time firefighter the next year. He rose through the ranks, serving as a lieutenant, captain, division commander of support services in the Department of Public Safety and fire chief. Wise is a certified Fire Officer II and EMT, and certified in hazmat operations and Incident command.