By using the local systems that are in place, what chiefs would want to embarrass themselves having all their peer chiefs say “take me off your cards”? Why? “Because every time my people go there they get hurt. You don't use incident command, and it's chaotic and stupid; there's no accountability.” Or “when I go to your town I send four people, minimum staffing, and when you come to my town I don't know if I'll get one person or five people. If I send you four, I should expect four back.”

Now if I'm the chief, I would think he could sit down with his elected officials and say, “We're only providing two people for mutual aid when everybody else is agreeing to send four. There's an inequity and here's some options to bring that manpower from two to four.”

The system is designed with systems already in place — local systems, political systems, mediation — so that whenever there is pressure to comply, you can put pressure. That's the de-centralized control to make it happen.

There was a coup in MABAS about seven or eight years ago. The individuals that wanted to turn it into a MABAS police situation were pretty much told by the remainder of the membership [that] we don't want to do business that way. We should be able to comply with our own standards.

To begin a process of top-down enforcement, a.k.a. MABAS police, will probably signal the beginning of the end of our system because all those that get disgruntled and break off and start developing their own little systems, and that's incredibly stupid.

Do you really think you can take this system to interstate, among several states?

Can you take this system and replicate it in another state? Yes, they did it in Wisconsin. They're doing it in Indiana. Can you take it to any state and replicate it? I'm not naïve enough to say yes. There are some states with some big issues and differences of opinion that are substantial and have nothing to do with mutual aid. For them to accept a system based on peer pressure, I think they have a ways to go and issues to resolve before that to happen.

Can state governments take over this system? They do it in California. They buy you a fire truck, you take the fire truck, and you shall participate in mutual aid. Florida: You want to participate? You got it. We'll pay you to participate. MABAS is fully reciprocal without charge. We don't charge neighbors. Our neighboring department has a fire. We respond. When it's all done, there will be thank yous, but no invoices or bills to be done.