Mutual Aid

Should peace-officer training be the next step for nation's firefighters? (with related video)

I was in Florida visiting my parents for the holidays when news broke of two volunteer firefighters ambushed and killed in Webster, N.Y., by a shooter who ended his own life. I was saddened by the incident, even more so by the fact such an incident wasn’t surprising to me. I heard of such incidents from my father’s days as a Chicago Fire Department lieutenant at Engine 8 in Chinatown.

When my father wasn’t scraping up bodies from nearby I-94, he responded to some of the worst neighborhoods in the city. It wasn’t unusual for him to come home from a shift and, while making the family breakfast before school, describe firefighters shielding themselves with trucks as residents from skyscraper project buildings shot down at them. Firefighters had to wait it out until police arrived.

“We are there to put out the fire; we are the good guys,” he’d laugh while telling the story. But I never really understood what was so funny about it — or how nonchalant he acted about it, like it was the absurd part of the job.

So it was no shock to either of us that two firefighters died by gunfire in Webster. That’s a bad sign. And while I would like to think firefighters lives are at risk more now than ever given the cultural climate of gun violence, I also know the problem has been around for decades.

While I am not a gun advocate by any means, is it time to mandate an armed peace officer is in place on each rig for all runs? Is it fair to say the culture demands that first responders be armed?

Case in point is a story that received little mainstream media press but makes a significant point when it comes to armed first responders, both off duty and on duty. Just after the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary, gunfire erupted at a movie theater in Bexar County, Texas. An off-duty Bexar County Sheriff officer who was working at the theater shot the suspect four times and wounded him. The man is in custody, and lives were spared.

“I don’t know,” my father said to me when I proposed a mandatory peace officer training for all firefighters, paid in conjunction with a municipality’s police/fire budget. “I’ve never enjoyed guns and that’s not why I joined the fire service. I would’ve been a cop, then.”

Good point. But times haven’t changed since he left the job more than 15 years ago, and a solution is needed to at least give firefighters the tools to defend themselves when their lives are at risk. Don’t you think it is immoral to send them in like sitting ducks as seen in Webster? What if just one of the firefighters was armed? Wouldn’t that have perhaps saved a life?

What do you think? Tell us in the comment box below.

 

Discuss this Blog Entry 30

Anonymous (not verified)
on Jan 3, 2013

I started my fire career with a a rural agency that encouraged us to carry our favorite firearm. It was a policy that made a positive difference over the years. You never know which call will require an extraordinary response. We were up to the challenge and saved a couple of lives by being prepared. I don't know if our current firefighters can wrap their heads around such an approach, but it worked for us.

BC1 (not verified)
on Jan 30, 2013

In over 30 years on a paid professional big city fire department, at various ranks within the organization, it never occurred once, that I might need a firearm. Please explain one situation where you as a firefighter needed a weapon.

Anonymous (not verified)
on Mar 1, 2013

In rural America we don't have the police presence that big city has in place 24/7. I have responded to a HazMat incident that involved liquid nitro in a bottle. Upon locating said bottle (a lidded mason jar with a clear liquid) we approached slowly in order to possibly view the contents. Some of our crews were clearing the neighborhood. This was midday, in a trailer court and during the summer months. As we approached the jar a man inside a mobile home started shooting at the jar and at fire fighters. I had a very clear view of this as I was trapped behind a tree stump with no cover. Had I had a firearm, the end of this call would have happened much sooner. There were 3 PD on duty that day. I was trapped behind that tree for nearly an hour as I heard the bullets hit the other side of the tree stump. Had I stood up I am sure I would have been shot.

lnaser@mcfpd.com (not verified)
on Jan 3, 2013

I think it is time to have a serious discussion about firefighter safety. I, like the authors father have never wanted to be a police officer, if I had I would have applied. Today however our society has changed and the safety of our firefighters must be discussed.

I have been a Chief officer as both a volunteer as well as a paid fire chief for the past 17 years. I have carried a fire arm in my vehicle the entire time. I do this because I have a deep sense of protecting my firefighters and because the local and state police are too few and too far away to answer all the calls we make. Sometimes you get into situations where you can not stay out of harms way. Lies told to Dispatchers, alcohol and drug abuse and just crazy people can hurt us. If you can wait for the police, this is probably the best solution. However if you are on scene and under attack, withdraw may not be an option.

I was always taught not to start a fight. I was also taught to finish a fight once it starts. This may mean protecting my firefighters with firearms. I think fire arms training should become a optional part of firefighter training for those who desire to carry a firearm. In Kentucky there is a concealed Carry class that is available for persons desiring to carry a fire arm or other weapon. I would like to see an advanced program for firefighters that includes both classroom and range time to insure competency

I would also think an annual refresher training should be required to maintain proficiency and competency.

This may seam contrary to the idea of protecting lives and property, but the first lives we need to protect is our firefighters.

Anonymous (not verified)
on Jan 3, 2013

Over the years many firefighters and EMS personnel have been able to talk their way out of a volatile situation because they were unarmed. We are looked at as the good guys who are there to help people. The police are looked at as the bad guys because they carry guns and arrest people. If we arm firefighters and EMS personnel and the public knows we are carrying, we may be preserved as the bad guys. This could lead to more violence against firefighters and EMS personnel. We need to think long and hard before we reverse the roles of police officers, firefighters and EMS personnel.

BC1 (not verified)
on Jan 30, 2013

I have 30 plus years of experience to comfirm that you are 100% correct. Almost everyone out there knows we are the good guys. Let's keep it that way, for the safety of the men and women on our departments.

Chief John Kozel Sr (not verified)
on Jan 3, 2013

I think the firefighters all across teh USA should be given the option of going armed and being trained how to best survive these types of attacks. They should also be afforded armor vest as part of their equipment.
John N Kozel
Chief : Lifeline Rescue

B/C RC2 (not verified)
on Jan 3, 2013

No guns for Firefighters. I spend 35 years on a paid inner-city Fire Department. We could, and did, walk anywhere, in the most dangerous parts of town and never had a problem, because even the baddest of the bad guys new the FD was there to help; and they knew that we did not carry. When the cops would show up, bottles and cans were flying. If you try to turn firefighters into peace officers, it will be the worst change to to ever happen to the fire service. They will become targets.

Gffd Chief (not verified)
on Jan 4, 2013

Then your "inner city" people have far more respect for the FD than our inner city . we are the ones getting assualted, bottles thrown at and shot at.

FiremanRFDNY
on Jan 14, 2013

B/C RC2 apparently you don't know that firefighters are and have been Peace Officers in 14 states in the U.S.. Some Fire Police units have been around for more than 160 years [New Jersey]. I have been a firefighter for 41 years and I am also a Fire Police Officer in a rural area in western New York. Fire Police in New York State are firefighters that are Peace Officers with full police powers including that of arrest when acting pursuant to their special duties. We are registered with the NY State Department of Criminal Justice and are sworn in by our local Town Clerk. We are authorized to carry a firearm by the state if our Fire Chief deems it necessary. We are firefighters first and fire police 2nd. Normally I will respond as fire police but depending on available manpower I can also function as a firefighter.
B/C, we are not targets as you mentioned but we have had a few minor incidents. Our responsibility is to protect the lives of the responders and safety of the apparatus so they can focus on getting the job done. This has been working well for many years.

B/C RC2 (not verified)
on Jan 3, 2013

No, don't make the firefighters targets. In the inner-city, firefighters can go anyplace, even in the baddest of the bad parts of town, and not get hassled by anyone, even by the baddest of the bad guys. Why, because everyone knows that when the fire department arrives, they are there to HELP someone. When the cops pull up on a scene, bottles and cans go flying and witnesses go away. 35 years of fighting fires in a big city and I never heard anyone give a firefighter a hard time. Keep it that way.

Jeff Allen (not verified)
on Jan 4, 2013

The most important line in this blog is, TIMES HAVE CHANGED. In too many states, my state of South Carolina one of the worst, there is a mental block regarding arming anyone at a fire department. At the very minimum, certain members such as the Fire Marshal, Code Enforcement Officers and/or Fire Inspectors should have the option of wearing a firearm. And if they exercise that option, have them respond to assist on all emergency calls for firefighter protection. Yes times have changed, and it is far past time we recognized and changed to meet these times. Stay safe.

BC1 (not verified)
on Jan 30, 2013

Jeff
I agree with you that certain members such as the Fire Marshal, Code Enforcement Officers and/or Fire Inspectors should have the option to carry, after going through full PD firearms training. But not the rank and file firefighters.

Jeff Allen (not verified)
on Jan 4, 2013

Permit me to add to my earlier comment by stating that I am a member of a fire department who reports to duty every day in uniform, wearing a gun and handcuffs. When I show up to support the fire suppression personnel with my department I am scanning the scene for situational awareness and 'other' problems from a law enforcement perspective. We cannot rely on response to every fire call from our understaffed municipal police and county sheriff's departments. It's time for change.

Mary Rose Roberts
on Jan 4, 2013

I appreciate all of the comments! It is a complicated issue. On the one side, you want to protect the good guy rep in tough neighborhoods; but on the other, good guys are still targets. What about letting individuals with training, like Jeff Allen above, carry while on duty? Maybe it becomes part of the chief officer rank, so at least one person at an incident is armed?

Chief Sluder (not verified)
on Jan 4, 2013

One thing we should always keep in mind is that no one answer or approach to a problem is going to be the best situation for every community. Being open to new ideas and approaches will keep us all diligent in our duties of public safety. It is not as easy as giving a firefighter a gun. It is not the gun that keep the police officer safe, its the state of mind of the individual.

Chief Dyal (not verified)
on Jan 9, 2013

Excellent comments. Not every community is the same and each chief needs to make that decision based upon their locale. Adding law enforcement responses to specific alarm types that we typically handled by ourselves could be helpful in some communities. A few Fire Rescue agencies have found it helpful to train Tactical Medics to support local LE and those relationships tie our strategic goals together. Having those Tactical Medics working along side LE on call-outs aids training in close-quarter tactical considerations. There is no easy solution that can be applied nationwide.

Mary Rose Roberts
on Jan 14, 2013

A balance approach is what is needed. Let each chief determine the risk and the policy, based on their community.

Mary Rose Roberts
on Jan 14, 2013

I agree that we have to be open to new ideas. This is a complicated issue.

Anonymous (not verified)
on Jan 10, 2013

I'm not related to EMS, Firefighters, or Cops in any way, but I still can't believe what I just read.

Why would anyone shoot a firefighter? They aren't cops who sometimes make mistakes or are sometimes corrupt, and they aren't doctors who also sometimes make mistakes.

They fight fires! There is no conflict between anyone and anyone who happens to be a firefighter. It just makes no sense.

FiremanRFDNY
on Jan 14, 2013

Apparently there are some of you that don't know that firefighters are and have been Peace Officers in 14 states in the U.S., some Fire Police units have been around for more than 160 years [New Jersey].
I have been a firefighter for 41 years and I am also a Fire Police Officer in a rural area in western New York. Fire Police in New York State are firefighters that are Peace Officers with full police powers including that of arrest when acting pursuant to their special duties. We are registered with the NY State Department of Criminal Justice and are sworn in by our local Town Clerk. We are authorized to carry a firearm by the state if our Fire Chief deems it necessary. We are firefighters first and fire police 2nd. Normally I will respond as fire police but depending on available manpower I can also function as a firefighter.
Our responsibility is to protect the lives of the responders and safety of the apparatus so they can focus on getting the job done. This has been working well for many years.

Mary Rose Roberts
on Jan 15, 2013

Why was this policy enacted in rural New York, was there a specific incident? Also, why do you think the community accepts this dual role? As many have noted, their concern is that it changes the perception of firefighters.

BC1 (not verified)
on Jan 30, 2013

Maybe, just maybe, it is a workable idea in a rural setting. You might know more about that than I do. But in the inner city...I think it's a very bad idea for the average firefighter. There might be some exceptions, as there always are for people that often work alone, such as Fire Marshals or Investigators, but each department should really think it through before entertaining the thought of arming firefighters.

Anonymous (not verified)
on Feb 8, 2013

I am a full time firefighter and a reserve sheriffs deputy. My fire district is concerned about if I may carry while on duty at the fire station due to in my off time having to patrol and arrest people that live in my fire dept response area. How do I go about finding out if I may conceal carry on the job? Not act as a peace officer when working at the fire dept but having a concealed carry weapon in case there is a run in with someone Ive arrested before....

Anonymous (not verified)
on Jan 18, 2013

I don't understand how people can rationalize that my carrying a firearm is going to make me safer. If I am in a position where i am being threatened with a firearm my having a firearm won't protect me. One of the firefighters killed in New York was a law enforcement officer. Yet he was killed. We need to get guns out of the hands of the mental cases who are perpetrating these crimes.

Mary Rose Roberts
on Jan 22, 2013

It is true that the one of the NY firefighters also was in law enforcement. Does anyone know what the policy was as far as being able to carry as a certified law enforcement officer? Was he armed?

TJ's Dad
on Jan 24, 2013

This has been a very good conversation. I have been a Volunteer in NJ with two communities for 34 yrs, EMT for 23 yrs. and have been in a refinery Emergency Response Team for over 20 yrs. In all of my training the number ! thing is situational awareness. I assess every scene I go to very quickly, as I do believe everyone else does.

That person in New York was a cold killer. He laid in wait for the FF and PD to arrive and started shooting. No training I ever recieved said look in the woods. This was a very disgusting and very disturbed person! Whether you carried a gun or not would not have made any difference.

If we want to help our brothers in the future to avoid these type of incidents, we have to keep criminals locked up and stop allowing these b$%#@^ds out of prison. There are laws that say these people must serve so much and then judges let them off with shorter terms (plea bergains) and situations like this arise and everyone jumps up and down about arming FF or even teachers.

Get on the judges and lawyers and make them enforce the laws, NO reduced sentences! This will help all of us in the long run!

Sorry so long I am steppeing off the soap box now.

Thanks for reading.

Mike McCarthy
on Jan 29, 2013

In Massachusetts:

Mass Gen Law ch. 48 § 88

No city or town shall require a permanent member of its fire department to perform the duties of a police officer during his tour of duty. No fire fighter shall, in connection with any industrial or labor dispute, perform the duties of a police officer or any duties other than those regularly performed by him.

Mass Gen Law ch.48 § 89
Section 89. No fire fighter shall be required to carry firearms in the performance of his duty.

ray44
on May 21, 2013

I think this type of training is so important to happen here. You will be able to benefit so much as a firefighter when you take this training. I hope they take advantage of this so much here. Wet basement London Ontario

muzammali
on May 22, 2013

I was doing a project and for that I was looking for related information. Some of the points are very useful. Do share some more material if you have.
------------------research paper writers

Please or Register to post comments.

What's Mutual Aid?

Mutual Aid is a blog of news and views from FIRE CHIEF staff and industry experts -- a virtual conversation about the issues important to you.

Contributors

Janet Wilmoth

Janet Wilmoth grew up in a family of firefighters in a Chicago suburb. She first worked for FIRE CHIEF magazine in 1986 as an associate editor and also served as FIRE CHIEF's international...

Mary Rose Roberts

Mary Rose Roberts is a senior editor at Penton Media, with a focus on wireless technology, public safety and fire leadership for FIRE CHIEF, Urgent Communications and Wildfire magazines. She also...
Blog Archive