Glenn Usdin is the president of Northeast Fire Apparatus, Lancaster County, Pa., a company he started in 1987 and now one of North America's largest used fire apparatus dealers. In addition, under a new partnership, the company will provide its expertise in loose equipment and used apparatus to American LaFrance dealers and customers.

Usdin first joined the fire service in 1974, when he became a firefighter in the Massapequa (N.Y.) Volunteer Fire Department and at the same time worked for the local Mack fire truck dealer. Usdin also worked as associate publisher of Fire Engineering magazine. He's currently the fire chief of Lancaster Township, with 75 firefighters and two stations to handle 450 calls a year.

IS: Used fire apparatus seems like a risky enterprise. How did you get involved in this business?

Usdin: I had seen when I was with a fire service magazine that there were a number of wealthier fire departments around the country that had used fire trucks for sale and were just not able to sell them on their own. I knew that there were also markets in parts of the country where the cost of new apparatus far exceeded any expectation that they could ever purchase it.

After seeing so many of the high-quality pre-owned vehicles that were available in my region, the New York metro area, and knowing that other parts of the country were in dire need of trucks like that, I worked with a friend of mine who had just started a brokerage business in used apparatus.

After a few years, I approached him to actually purchase the vehicles, but he chose to remain a broker. So I ended up purchasing the vehicles that he supplied the leads to for about a year and a half. We parted ways, and Northeast Fire Apparatus was born in 1988.

IS: How many units do you buy and sell in a year?

Usdin: Currently between 125 and 150. There are companies that sell more than we do, but we've developed a niche for the higher-dollar and late-model vehicles. We don't buy anything unless it's 1980 or newer, and we specialize in low-to-medium mileage in good condition. We rarely purchase units from the high-mileage cities that are very hard on their vehicles.

We specialize in working with manufacturers that are selling new vehicles and getting the fire departments to turn some of their vehicles over in a quicker time frame. Basically the industry standard over the last 20 or 30 years has been to keep pumpers for 20 years, ladders and special units for 25 years.

We've shown fire departments that they can cut that life cycle in half and get far more value for their used unit and also upgrade to new units, so it's a win-win situation for everybody. We get late-model units available, the fire department gets new units more suitable for their needs and to nfpa standards, and the manufacturers get to sell more fire apparatus.

IS: What geographic area do you cover?

Usdin: The bulk of the vehicles we buy come from the Northeast and mid-Atlantic regions. However, that's changing as other parts of the county become more responsive to the concept of replacing apparatus on a quicker time frame. The vehicles that we sell literally go throughout North America. In the last 24 hours we've sold vehicles in Oregon, Minnesota, the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic region.

IS: Is there an area that traditionally buys more used vehicles?

Usdin: It's not so much a geographic area as much as in the more rural areas. Due to the taxing and financial structure of municipalities providing less and less funding for the smaller fire departments, they tend to be the areas that purchase used fire apparatus.

I can't say any one particular state, because Pennsylvania, particularly around the Philadelphia, Lancaster and Pittsburgh areas, has some of the wealthiest regions for new apparatus, but is also one of the best regions for used fire apparatus, because in addition to all the wealthy suburban fire companies are many rural companies. But we sell as many fire trucks in Alabama as we do in Pennsylvania.

IS: What's the difference between a broker and a dealer?

Usdin: The difference is that a broker works like a real estate agent and gets a commission. A broker tends to be more of a seller's representative.

A dealer actually purchases the vehicle, takes it into his inventory, and works closely with both the buyer and the seller. Dealers have to be careful of what they buy, because they only want good fire apparatus. Dealers tend to be more customer service-oriented.

IS: What are some of the advantages for a department to sell through a dealer instead of at an auction?

Usdin: The greatest advantage to selling to a dealer is that a dealer will probably pay them better dollars for a unit that's in good to better condition.

Auction prices are fire-sale prices, the lowest prices. One of the things you find at auctions is that they're guaranteeing they will sell it that day for pennies on the dollar. You have to hire an auction company and do the advertising.

When you deal with a dealer, it's easier. Fire departments that sell through dealers also tend to find that we appreciate the fire apparatus, and if they have an apparatus that has value to a secondary market, they're going to receive more money.

IS: What is a dealer looking for when he looks at a piece of used apparatus?

Usdin: There are a number of criteria, like the age of the vehicle. If it's older than 15-20 years, the value is exceedingly low, because a number of communities on the secondary market are looking to upgrade their ratings either through iso or a state's rating schedule. So many communities won't buy anything over 15 years old, no matter what condition it's in, because they're not going to get credit.

The next thing we look for is the manufacturer of the truck. Is it one that we can currently get parts and service for? Most of the reputable dealers aren't going to purchase something if the manufacturer is no longer available, especially on aerial devices. You're not providing a service to your customer if you sell him an aerial, but he can't get parts anywhere.

The last part of the equation is the actual condition of the truck. Has the truck been well maintained? Has it seen excessive use in a major metropolitan area, versus light use in a suburban area?

IS: How much refurbishment do you put into pre-owned apparatus?

Usdin: Currently, an nfpa committee is meeting to define refurbishment, because it's one of those terms that's been defined as anything from a simple paint job on up.

When we bring in an apparatus we look at two areas: mechanical and cosmetic. From the mechanical, we look at everything from the power train to the electrical system, warning lights, a pump service test. We send it out for a dot inspection that every over-the-road truck has every six months. An independent company does a test on the aerial device.

From a cosmetic point of view, we basically bring the vehicle up to cosmetic standards, such as corrosion and replacing any torn upholstery. Just because a fire department is purchasing a 10- or 15-year-old unit doesn't mean they don't want it to be looking sharp, as well as fully functional.

IS: What about product liability? Where does the liability lie when a fire department buys a used apparatus?

Usdin: The strictest interpretation is that, assuming that the apparatus was never modified from the original manufacturer's intended use and design, the bulk of the product liability will remain with the original manufacturer.

One thing we're particularly concerned about, and we're not the only ones: We're very specific that we will not make a major modification that in any way alters the manufacturer's original design. We feel strongly that if we alter, say, an aerial ladder that did not have a fire pump, and mount a fire pump on it, in the event that there would be any sort of product liability litigation, the original manufacturer would have an affirmative defense that the somebody that altered the apparatus would have to assume the liability.

We'll change the color, change booster tanks that are rusted or add lights, but we won't stretch the frame rails on a truck or increase an axle or change a cab or add a waterway. We pretty much leave vehicles as they are, with the knowledge that if there was a product liability lawsuit, as the seller we'd be included, but that's the cost of doing business in the United States.

You can never ultimately protect yourself thoroughly and that's why you have insurance, but I think you can protect yourself if you don't change the vehicle's original design.

IS: At what point does a used fire apparatus become an antique?

Usdin: The "antique" classification is for apparatus from the '20s, '30s, '40s and '50s. It's not carrying over like antique cars, where there's a groundswell of buyers for vehicles from the '60s and '70s. Anything past the '70s is obsolete.

We're having a problem in the used market getting people to buy anything in the early '80s. People call us up to sell us units from the '60s and '70s, and these are the bigger departments. I wish these people could spend a day on our telephones and listen to the people from the rural areas of the United States who say they won't buy anything older than an '85 or '88 and buy it for $30,000, yet people have units 20 or 30 years old and want to sell them for $30,000. There's a great disparity. Our sales manager has a great expression, "If it was so easy, everybody would be doing it."

IS: With all the new technology on the rigs, do you find that smaller departments don't want all that stuff?

Usdin: No, but I'll tell you what we are finding. The fire apparatus manufacturers, driven by the nfpa regulations in the late '80s, have started to get into a much higher degree of electronics and electronic controls on pumps and aerial ladders. What we're finding is that some of the electronic controls aren't holding up as well as the old-style mechanical controls. We're seeing the later-model units having some electrical problems that the units we bought previously from the '60s and '70s didn't have.

Some of the overrides and other types of equipment that are required by nfpa, and that the manufacturers are offering today, are going to cause some problems on used vehicles. That doesn't mean we'll go back to manual overrides, but we'll have new challenges to face in the future.

Some of the multiplexing, and the engine and transmission controls, and interfaces with the engines are going to cause some problems when the vehicles are 10 or 15 years old. It's just going to require some more maintenance time and well-trained maintenance people.

IS: Is there anything a fire department ordering a new vehicle today should do to enhance its value as used apparatus?

Usdin: I always tell people to buy apparatus for your first-due area. I'm a fire chief and have a first-due area that has apparatus to meet our needs first.

If you walk around trade shows, you'll see that people are buying things on apparatus that are so specific that another user that doesn't have almost identical needs wouldn't be able to use. I'm not saying people should buy generic apparatus, but we've seen some specific compartment and piping configurations that have made the vehicle not desirable. If a department is going to keep a vehicle for 10 years and still get some value out of it, they have to ask whether they've made it so specific to their community that no one else would want to buy it.

The other thing I tell fire departments, you want to keep up with your maintenance and maintenance records. One of the first things a buyer asks for is the maintenance records. If I can say, 'Okay, I'm going to fax you 15 pages of maintenance records showing that every three or six months it had an oil change or pump test, or all the things that constitute the manufacturers' requirements," departments are so happy to receive that and it enhances the value. So keep the records to prove you did it.

IS: What trend do you see over the next few years?

Usdin: Most manufacturers are beginning to offer guarantees or tradebacks of the apparatus, and this is going to add greatly to the availability of secondary apparatus and encourage fire departments to keep their apparatus for a shorter time and take advantage of great upgrades and safety improvements.

We see that by having more late models available for the used market, departments that were buying 15-year-old vehicles can now look at some good, well-maintained 5- and 7-year-old pieces. What's available will be better quality.